(no subject)

[bluflamingo]

seekergeek wrote a post about why she doesn't like Sheppard/Mitchell stories. Which I should have known better than to go read, because they're my pairing and I knew it would bother me, but sadly, I'm too curious for my own good so I went and read it, and some of the comments.

Good news? She's not bashing the pairing.

Bad news: She just thinks all of us who write it do a shit job of writing John.

"The thing that all the stories (at least the ones I've tried, at any rate) have had in common is that John always seems to be utterly helpless and without any agency to act on his own behalf. Is it some weird perception on my part, or do any of you see Cam sucking all the life out of John in stories with this pairing too?"

And, I mean, I disagree wildly, obviously. But I'm kind of hurt as well. Because if she's read Cam/John fic, she's probably read some of mine, and she's probably read some of the stuff I love, by people I like and whose fic I like, and it's not really presented as her opinion, it's really more presented as fact (yes, ok, "is is some weird perception on my part" but the implied answer is "no")

Well, except for fic by busaikko, who, don't get me wrong, is an awesome author who does a great job of writing this pairing and many others, but she's also fairly new to it, so again implication that all of the older John/Cam writers suck at it.

It remind me of the first round of the flyboys ficathon, when all the established Mcshep writers came and played in the John/Cam pool and were raved about. Would have thought the established John/Cam people didn't exist though.

Maybe it's just that I'm bitter because I feel like I'm being implicitly criticised and I don't like it (she doesn't have to like the pairing, but that doesn't mean none of the people writing it can write. I don't like Ronon/Rodney, but I'm sure some of the people writing it do a great job). Maybe I'm just annoyed because there's the usual "what about Rodney?" - um, he's not necessarily John's most important relationship, actually. The people John talks to are Teyla and Ronon, he plays with Rodney, and I'm not saying Rodney's not important to him, but no-one's arguing that you can't write about John without including Ronon and Teyla.

And yes, my own stupid fault for reading something I probably could have told you would bother me, so in a way I've no right to complain, but I wasn't actually expecting to be told we all suck as writers in a post about why she doesn't like the pairing.

ETA: Wow, okay, her comment while closing comments is, "Listen up, stans: my criticizing fic that you love does not constitute a personal attack on you" - um, no, but actually saying that we all write John badly in fic that you don't like does constitute a personal attack, and since she doesn't name names, it's implicitly on everyone who writes the pairing. Which I would guess is what people are bothered by.

Comments

[karmageddon]

*barf*

My favorite part was where she told everyone "be respectful!" after literally saying that no one who has ever written this pairing has done justice to her woobie

[bluflamingo]

It's only disrespectful if it's addressed to her - I mean, clearly the rest of us can't write our way out of a paper bag, so we don't deserve respect anyway :)

[karmageddon]

LOL Well I am happy to suck over here with you. We can be inadequate together.

[bluflamingo]

At least we're in good company :)

[scrollgirl]

Ahaahaha! Sorry, I'm not laughing at you so much as... well, the very idea that she was actually giving John/Cam fic a fair shake. You know why I don't read fic that revolves around Rodney McKay, whether gen, slash, or het? (Though I've made exceptions for Rodney/Jennifer, because writing against fandom trends helps that pairing succeed.) No matter how brilliant a McKay story might be, it'll never meet my expectations. I have an extremely narrow view of Rodney: he can be smart, but he can't show up Sam. He can be a brave little toaster, but he can't be coddled or overly praised for it. He can be kind and generous, but not OOC. He needs to be rude and sarcastic, but other characters can't let him get away with shit. He needs to be clueless. He needs to be smacked down when he deserves a good smacking down. He and John can't have a "special bond" that's more special than John's bond with Ronon or Teyla, or Rodney's with Zelenka or Beckett.

In other words, I'm impossible to please.

I suspect seekergeek is equally impossible to please, if she finds Cam's personality "grating" and has managed to somehow only read John/Cam fic in which John is *passive*.

[paian]

That sucks. I'm really sorry.

[havocthecat]

Oh, for God's sake, "I do not like the way characterization is in these stories" doesn't mean that you all write a bad or out of character John Sheppard. *sigh*

Also, seriously, it is possible to write SGA without making Rodney McKay a central character in every story or making him a central figure in everyone's relationships. It's not like you have to take a Rodney McKay Fan Test in order to be admitted into SGA fandom.

There's a lot of really good Cam/John fic out there, including yours. With good characterization of John. As someone who doesn't primarily read m/m (and is therefore pretty discerning on what m/m I do read), I feel that speaks positively to the quality of the Cam/John writers.

[bluflamingo]

That doesn't sound like a Rodney characterisation that should be impossible to find (though I can imagine it would be). But yeah - I've got to the point where I won't read anything where Teyla (and sometimes Ronon) are just there to point out how clueless John and Rodney are about their feelings for each other, or where Keller stays on Earth after season 5 or... So I get where you're coming from, I think.

I suspect seekergeek is equally impossible to please

Gotta admit, I was tempted to spam her comments with links to all the Cam/John fic where that isn't true (so, you know, most of it) but she shut down comments before I got the chance :(

[bluflamingo]

Now I've slept on it, I'm feeling a bit more rational about the whole thing, but yeah - "I just don't like that pairing" is a complete and valid sentence that she might have liked to have used!

[bluflamingo]

Also, seriously, it is possible to write SGA without making Rodney McKay a central character in every story or making him a central figure in everyone's relationships

Heresy! How dare you darken the doors of SGA fandom?!

Honestly, I'll never get fandom's obsession with that character above all else.

[havocthecat]

I once plotted an entire AU about Elizabeth and Teyla as lesbian pirate queens, and how they rescued Janet Fraiser from the Wraith (it was a complicated crossover au and Janet was in the middle of escaping anyway) and writing thousands of words on female friendship and femslash and the hours of work I put into making sure that the entire pseudohistorical, fantastical world made actual sense, after all of that?

The comment I remember most clearly - and bitterly - is the one asking what the guys were doing during the story. I believe Rodney was especially mentioned.

I mean, he's not a bad character, I guess, if you're into that type. He's just not all that either.

(I also remember the primarily m/m person who said that all the Stargate f/f sucked. I am so bitter sometimes.)

[scrollgirl]

Her comments are open again! And I've left a comment that tried to be fair. (Fairer than I think her post deserves, to be honest. I mean, I've certainly had feelings along those lines about Rodney fic, but I don't *actually* believe all Rodney fic is badly written and I haven't made swooping generalisations about McShep writers. Some, a faction of them, but not ALL.)

I'm VERY curious which stories she's read. I wouldn't even be offended if my fic was on her list of "ew, never again". Of course, I'd probably be offended if *yours* was, so maybe it's better not to ask! I mean, what does it even *mean* that John is "an utter dishrag"? Is pining!John automatically a dishrag? Is girl!John? Is he "without agency" if he lets Cam make the first move? Or if Cam tops?

John/Cam doesn't have the thousands of stories that John/Rodney does, but there's still quite a variety. And I find it hard to believe that *all* the ones she's read involve John being bizarrely *helpless*.

[schneefink]

Elizabeth and Teyla as lesbian pirate queens! With Janet! Sounds awesome. Can I have a link, please? :D

I haven't seen the comment you mentioned, of course, but if it was me, I always tend to go "and what about the others?", regardless of who the story is about, so it might not have been deliberate "boys are more interesting".

[bluflamingo]

Her comments are open again!

Huh, I was sure she wouldn't bother. But I'm not going over there - just seems like it has 'bad idea' written all over it!

I wouldn't even be offended if my fic was on her list of "ew, never again"

Can I be offended for you if it is? See, that's part of what bugs me-we have *so many* good writers, like you, and she's just brushing them all aside. Grr!

[bluflamingo]

I once plotted an entire AU about Elizabeth and Teyla as lesbian pirate queens, and how they rescued Janet Fraiser from the Wraith

Link please???? I think I've seen you mention this before, but for some reason I thought you were planning to write it, not that you had.

To your actual point-yeah, how often do you see a fic about the guys where someone asks what the women were doing? Really not that often.

[scrollgirl]

She hasn't responded to any of my comments yet, so whatever. I've moved on. gaffsie has a post up, though, sparked by some of the comments there.

Heh. I think we're all offended for our friends' behalf, not for our own sake. And yeah, that's it exactly, that she's painting all John/Cam writers as things monolithic group that uniformly produces poorly characterised John. (And Cam, I assume, but she doesn't seem to care about him except in how he affects John).

[broms_lullaby]

Here are my opinions on the matter. Please read them and tell others to do the same.

[havocthecat]

I would be happy to link you to the fics! There were three stories. I think that the comment was on my Wraithbait page, not on the LJ pages I'm going to link you to. I haven't uploaded this particular series to the ao3 yet, though I think I will be doing that today.

I had planned on writing further in the series, to get to Elizabeth and Teyla's wedding. It starts out that Teyla is the consort; she was supposed to marry Elizabeth and end up with equal status. I abandoned it after the stunning lack of feedback on the third story.

The Rescue
By the Shivering Sea
An Interrupted Cry

As to the "what about the others?" types of comments, well. Um. While I see what you mean, the experience of me and of others in SGA fandom who write primarily about the women is that we get feedback asking what the men are doing. And, well, we don't read it as the feedbacker saying "I would like to see more information on the other characters you didn't write about." We mostly end up reading it as "we don't care about this story, it's about women and we want to know about the men." Which may not be what the person leaving feedback intends, but when you're already in the minority for fangirling female characters, it comes off that way anyway.

But I don't think that this was you. :) And anyway, I can't check, since it looks like I pulled the fic off Wraithbait for some reason or another.

[havocthecat]

No, no, it's something I already worked on. You've probably seen the comment drop already, but I linked the stories here.

To your actual point-yeah, how often do you see a fic about the guys where someone asks what the women were doing? Really not that often.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that they were asked, in the comments to their McShep story, what Elizabeth and Teyla were up to, no. For example.

[schneefink]

Thanks for the link! Yay, pirate AUs :D

You're absolutely right about those kind of comments, and I'm sorry if it came across differently. It must become frustrating! I was just trying to excuse myself for leaving the same sort of feedback occasionally (mostly "but where are Ronon and Teyla?" on John&Rodney fics - but then, John&Rodney fans are not exactly a minority!)