Pairing labels

[bluflamingo]

So, I'm sitting here, all ready to draw up a header for the fic I've just finished, and I've got a problem. My header for fic in my journal includes, amongst other things, the pairing, or the main character(s) in a gen piece, because I personally like to know who I'm going to be reading about in a story and so assume other people like to as well.

This is the problem, however: there's a very brief, non-explicit sex scene in this story. It's maybe a couple of hundred words out of a fic that's over 5 1/2 thousand, and while it's an important part of the story, the story isn't about the pairing, the relationship, or sex/romance in any way. Even the sex isn't about those things, it's about comfort between two friends. The story is about John's relationship with his father who's just died.

So, the answer is probably It's your journal, it's your story, label it however you damn well please (or a more polite version thereof) but I'm curious to know how you'd label this in terms of pairings. I want to label it John-centric gen, which it is, but I think if I saw that, I'd be kind of surprised to see a sex scene later on. That said, if I saw a story labelled with a pairing, I'd expect the other half of the pairing to be around more.

Help me - my brain is no longer up to these kinds of complex and vital decisions!

Comments

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

IMO, no. It's not the actual explicitness of the sex that makes something het or slash (or both) as opposed to gen, but the fact that the protagonist is having the sex/is in the relationship. I mean, if fade-to-black sex can be counted as gen, then by extension only NC-17 or R-rated fic can be slash, and there are a lot of slashers (and het writers) who would take exception to the notion that their stories are gen rather than het/slash simply because they aren't porny enough.

I mean, I just finished co-writing a very long, plotty comics fic that contains a slash romance as one of its central themes, but has no explicit sex. I'd argue that the fact that the sex involves fades-to-black, that the relationship is part of a larger action plot, and that there's het relationships present as well (all arguements I've seen towards why slash fics should be classified as gen) doesn't lessen its "slashiness." It's still a story where one guy sleeps with another guy.

*grins* and I can assure you, in the eyes of gen fans on ff.net, two pages on non-explicit m/m sex in the midst of two-hundred pages of plot sure as hell make something slash. It was slash, period, because we had, zomg, "made Captain America gay."

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that sounds logical. I guess I'm stuck on the idea of the label coming from what the story's about - I've written fade to black slash that I wouldn't think of labelling gen because the story's about the relationship, for example.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm stuck on the idea of the label coming from what the story's about

But to me that's not really what Gen is. To me there's slash, there's het and there's Gen which is neither slash or het (and then there's unlucky people who have both slash and het in their fic who will probably get a headache).

It seems odd to me when somebody says they want to label something Gen just because it has an action plot. If labels are for what the story is about, wouldn't the label then be "plotfic" or "adventurefic"? Or like in your case "Charactefic" or "Character Exploration Fic"?

I just don't feel that slash/het are interchangable with "romance" or even just interchangable with "relationship fic". To me slash/het/gen is more like an attribute that can be added to any type of story.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

That's interesting, I don't think I'd ever realy thought about it like that, with slash/het/gen being one attribute of any story. I agree they're definitely not interchangeable with romance, but I think I'd expect slash/het to be primarily about the relationship in some way. Your way makes a lot of sense though.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I do think that my definition probably isn't even the most popular or most widespread one, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

Me thinks that so much of fic that gets written is about shippy (romance, relationship) stuff rather than action and plot so most people don't even bother to identify the genres like adventurefic anymore (like the way you would have horror/thriller/sci-fi/law genres in real life).

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

To me slash/het/gen is more like an attribute that can be added to any type of story.

"Gen" doesn't seem to be this for you--under your schema, gen isn't an attribute that can be added to a story that already has het or femslash or m/m slash. (Noted that for people for whom gen=(non-romantic)plot, it is an attribute that can be added to any type of story, and m/f and m/m and f/f all are as well.)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the attributes might be mutually exclusive (like "has dogs" or "had no dogs". A story can have dogs and it can have no dogs, but it can't have both at the same time), but they can be added to other stories. You can have gen action you can have gen horror you can have gen mystery you can have gen character introspection. (now whether "Gen romance" can exist is debatable)

Noted that for people for whom gen=(non-romantic)plot

So why not call it "plot" instead of "gen". At least plot is self-explainatory.

The problem is that I don't really get why people would want to name their stuff "gen" instead of "plotfic" or "adventurefic" anyway. It's not like gen is some badge of honor or like it will actually get you more readers. Unless some people do consider it a badge of honor (like it somehow means that it is somehow more canon when it's gen) or think it will get them more readers (like readers that would shy away from a slash story).

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

So why not call it "plot" instead of "gen". At least plot is self-explainatory.

I guess most people like to believe that plot, of one kind or another, is kind of a given unless otherwise stated. At least, you'd hope so :)

I don't think it's so much wanting to label if gen as averse to xfic, more that adventurefic, for example, could be gen, slash or het, and it's a desire to make it clear which it is. I mean, I could label mine characterfic or something, but that wouldn't get across the idea that it's mostly all about John with one sex scene towards the end. For me, I like to know who's going to be featuring in a story, and what kind of story I'm going into in terms of relationships, which requires either pairing labels and/or gen/slash/het.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I could label mine characterfic or something, but that wouldn't get across the idea that it's mostly all about John with one sex scene towards the end

If the sex scene is not essential enough you could throw it in the "warning section". Like

Genre: Character fic
Warnings: Some sexual content (or some m/m sexual content)

I don't think that something that doesn't fall neatly into gen/slash/het has to be labeled. Why not just leave the gen/slash/het label off to express precisely that it doesn't fall neatly into any of those categories? Especially since you have summaries on top of all of that. It doesn't really consitute gen, but you feel it doesn't constitute slash either, so just make it neither.

It's not like adventurefic can't be slash, het or gen. There can be gen adventurefic and slash adventurefic and het adventurefic. But if it has some slash that makes not not!gen to me, so labeling it gen would be mislabeling it.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

If the sex scene is not essential enough you could throw it in the "warning section".

Hmm, that's not a bad idea, I guess. Or at least into author's notes or the summary - I'm not sure I believe in warning for sexual content unless it's something like non-con or BDSM.

I don't think that something that doesn't fall neatly into gen/slash/het has to be labeled

True. I like things to be neatly ordered though - it's a thing :)

But if it has some slash that makes not not!gen to me, so labeling it gen would be mislabeling it.

And that's exactly my problem in the first place - it's not!gen because of the slashy bit, but it's also notreally!slash, because most of it is unrelated - there's nothing really about it until it happens. I mean, I know it can't be gen, but I still maintain that it's not slash by the definition I use, either.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'd warn for sexual content if it's in a story where one wouldn't expect it (and that would certainly be the case in a gen story or a characterfic story). But I personally would also quickly warn for violence because I'm a pussy in that regard :)

I admit I see warnings as something that I would use for anything unexpected. I mean, I wouldn't warn for "SciFi" in an SGA story, but I would warn for "SciFi" or "SciFi elements" if I was let's say writing Gilmore Girls or CSI.

I mean, I know it can't be gen, but I still maintain that it's not slash by the definition I use, either.

Not labelling it either way! Go for it! It's not that scary :)

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

Not labelling it either way! Go for it! It's not that scary :)

Ironically, looking back over most of my posts, I don't seem to have ever bothered with the label, unless it was gen and I wanted to make the distinction, since my fic is usually slashy.

I admit I see warnings as something that I would use for anything unexpected.

That makes sense, actually. I suppose it's the same kind of thing as my tendency to note that something's an AU of whatever type in my summary, just under a different heading.

[dvorarose.livejournal.com]

I've never really thought all that much about how people label their stories because I tend to decide if I'll read it based on the summary given. I like the idea of a label "plot!fic" or "adventure!fic" or "kid!fic" but that doesn't help tell what the main relationship will look like.

If the story doesn't have a romantic relationship as a central focus then it makes sense to label it: Genre: Character piece. Pairing: John/M(incidental)

If the pairing is graphic (either het or slash) I think it's important to say that b/c frankly I want my kid to know to stay away from it. If I look over her shoulder and see smut she's gonna be in trouble, (no matter if it's m/m, f/f, or m/f) and it's not her fault if she didn't know it was there to start with.

*It's not like gen is some badge of honor or like it will actually get you more readers.*

In some ways it kinda is. Personally, I like stories that have a gay pairing or no pairing at all, so slash or gen. But I happen to think the *cannon* pairings in SGA and SGC are slash pairings. But that may be just me.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

In some ways it kinda is. Personally, I like stories that have a gay pairing or no pairing at all, so slash or gen. But I happen to think the *cannon* pairings in SGA and SGC are slash pairings. But that may be just me.

But that's the problem. This kind of assumption only works if you are in a group that shares this perception of canonicity. Yet there are plenty of people who think that John/Teyla and Sam/Jack are the canon pairings (and let's face it, there's canon reasons why some might think so).

Just like you probably wouldn't want to open a gen story and fit out that it is really John/Teyla some John/Teyla or ShepWeir wouldn't want to click on something that is advertised as gen only to find out that it's really a slash (or different ship) story masking as gen. It's a two way street.

So to me the fair solution is for both sides to realize that their story doesn't qualify as gen (which brings me back to different groups having hickhacks trying to prove that their pairing is more canon and therefore more "deserving" of the Gen label; something I find supremely annoying. If your story is shippy then it's not Gen, even if it's not explicit).

If the story doesn't have a romantic relationship as a central focus then it makes sense to label it: Genre: Character piece. Pairing: John/M(incidental)


That's how I would label it as well. If the focus is on something else then label it as that (action story, adventure story, character story), but that doesn't mean that you can't give tons of additional information (like a pairing that plays a minor role).

It's just that to me "Gen" not only implies absence of relationships for the most part it also gives little insight to what the story is about.

[dvorarose.livejournal.com]

*But that's the problem. This kind of assumption only works if you are in a group that shares this perception of canonicity....*

I think I was unclear, which is totally my fault for posting at this hour. I completely agree with you that gen should read as the absence of all pairings. I don't think any cannon pairings are 'gen' since they are ya know, *pairings.* I'm very careful when I write (or beta) to make sure that any sexual (or romantic) pairings gets a nod in the header. I really appreciate when some one takes the time to tell me of minor pairings too. We all have our squicks, and some times it's a person and not just an act. All I meant was that I would rather read a gen story, with no pairings, than a het story, regardless of the pairing, because I think the slash pairings are the cannon pairings.

On an unrelated (?) issue, I also like to see a line in the header telling me if a story is going to contain graphic violence. I hate it when I get half way through a story I'm enjoying and realise a main character is about to get beat near to death. I get enough violence in the real world, I don't always want to deal with it in my fic.

I hope that is more clear.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

*grins* and I can assure you, in the eyes of gen fans on ff.net, two pages on non-explicit m/m sex in the midst of two-hundred pages of plot sure as hell make something slash. It was slash, period, because we had, zomg, "made Captain America gay."

And that's the enlightened perspective one is supposed to cater to?

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

I wasn't saying that. What I was trying (in-articulatly) to argue was that a) any sexual or romantic relationship on the part of the main character makes a fic Not Gen, b) as both a writer of gen fic and a writer of PG to PG-13 rated slash, I find the idea that fics without onscreen sex are gen to be problematic, and c) to most gen fans, nothing with m/m content (or, to be fair, m/f content, or f/f content) is really gen.

I think the question to ask before labeling something gen is not, "is this slashy enough to be slash," but "would a gen fan call this gen, or consider it slash/het/ship." Otherwise, there's a risk of co-opting the label (just as fans who insist that "slash" can mean "any non-canon pairing" have tried to co-opt the term slash for het fics).

The guy who left me the ff.net review, who was actually pretty polite for all that he was fundamentally misguided re: Cap and Iron Man's sexuality (Tony Stark is about as straight as the Grecian coastline), mostly objected not to the content per se, but to the fact that the slash showed up five chapters into a fic he had assumed to be gen (my fault, I labeled it m/m instead of "slash," and he wasn't familiar with the label).