(no subject)

[bluflamingo]

OK, I realise that I sometimes have unrealistic expectations of how open-minded people will be, but I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that a group of postgraduate social science students have a basic understanding of personal identity and people's right to self-define.

So, to put it in context: in my class this morning, another student brought up a friend of hers who has transitioned from male to female, and asked if we thought this person could contribute to discussions about how it feels to be a woman as a woman. To which my answer was, well, she's a woman, she defines and presents herself as a woman, and is experienced by society as a woman - of course she can contribute, as much as any of us can.



My class disagreed. Which wouldn't even have bothered me (well, it would, but people have the right to disagree, I guess) except that I and my tutor corrected them six times between us that he-or-she was not the correct pronoun, but in fact she was, since the person we were discussing is a woman. Biologically, socially, in the way she behaves, in the way she thinks of herself - she's as much of a woman as any of the people with female bodies they were born into sitting in the class.

Add to that the fact that someone said, in all seriousness and to general agreement, besides she's not even gay, so what's the point? Um, the two are IN NO WAY analagous. Just because society would prefer that all us gay people change our genders so we can fit into a heterosexual mold, doesn't mean we want to (leaving aside the issues for people who aren't attracted to just one gender, for whom that wouldn't work anyway). And being trans isn't about who you want to sleep with, it's about wanting your external appearance to match your identity (in general terms).

Then, just in case they hadn't been offensive enough, they added that they wouldn't want to share a changing room with this person, because if she wasn't gay she must be a lesbian (huh?!) and would be ogling them while they were changing. Um, news flash (a) you're not that hot, sorry and (b) even if you were, we lesbians can control ourselves you know!

I just - I couldn't even explain after a while, because I was so angry and so disappointed by my fellow students, I couldn't even put a sentence together. I just wanted to walk out. How can people have got to their early twenties, gone through a university education, been involved in the social sciences and not grasped this stuff? I hate feeling like I'm ahead of my classmates in this way, because I want them to show some sensitivity. One correction of the pronoun, maybe two, but six? Is it that hard? They know I'm gay, I'm open about it and have discussed it in context in class discussions - do they really have so little sensitivity, so little capacity to understand how someone else might feel that they can't see why saying I'd be ogling them and they wouldn't want to change with me is offensive (because, yes, even though I've always had this body, I'm still gay. I'm actually probably more gay than your friend, who, from what I could grasp from your extremeley bad description of her sexuality, is probably straight and attracted to men).

Also - just because your expression of your femininity doesn't include wanting to be treated "chivalrously" by men (neither does mine) that doesn't mean it's an invalid way of expressing your femininity if that's what someone wants to do.

In other words - thank God I never have to take a class with these people again. And that goes double for the people who sat there and said nothing - grow a backbone and express an opinion!

Comments

[ionaonie.livejournal.com]

How can people have got to their early twenties, gone through a university education, been involved in the social sciences and not grasped this stuff? The mind truly boggles. And I have no answer. Although I can tell you that if I'd been there you'd have had someone backing you up. Also deciding whether to laugh or cry (or yell) at their sheer ignorance and bigotry.

Then, just in case they hadn't been offensive enough, they added that they wouldn't want to share a changing room with this person, because if she wasn't gay she must be a lesbian (huh?!) and would be ogling them while they were changing. Ah, the curse of the straight people who believe that if you are gay, then you are a)attacted to everyone of your sex and b) are unable to control yourself.

You know how there is a special hell for paedophiles and people who talk in the theatre? Well, I think there's one for them too ;-)

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

I'd love to have someone backing me up somedays. I really believe that people will only start changing their minds if they have to listen to people who think differently from them, but somedays I'd really love not to be the only one doing it, all the time.

Ah, the curse of the straight people who believe that if you are gay, then you are a)attacted to everyone of your sex and b) are unable to control yourself.

Yeah, you know us gay people- we can barely make it to class in the morning, we're so busy jumping every person of the same gender that we see!

I'm holding out for the special hell, really.

[kontiki.livejournal.com]

...or my personal favorite...

Not only can't you control yourself, but children are fair game.

Yes, I've had to explain to people that being gay is not pedophilia.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

God, don't remind me. I used to be a teacher, and I couldn't tell anyone at the school that I was gay in case the kids/parents found out, because they couldn't grasp that likes women doesn't equal wants to do inappropriate and illegal things to your kids!

In (partial) defense of those who say nothing...

[army-rat.livejournal.com]

It seems you have been in the class for a semester and there have been similar discussions before. If you see my other post regardeing chameleons I'm willing to bet that after seeing umpteen weeks of total ignorance some of those silent people may simply not wish to tilt at windmills.

Did you ever get into the studies that show that gay people (especially women) tend to have FEWER sexual partners in their lifetimes and have a greater level of success at long term relationships than their straight 'cousins'? (Or were your classmates too busy jumping every person of whatever gender of preference to actually get that far in their education?)

Re: In (partial) defense of those who say nothing...

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

This is actually the first time we've had these discussions in this class, though we have in others, but the same people aren't in any of my other classes, if that makes sense. I suppose they probably do have their reasons for not saying anything, they just frustrate me because they're so passive. Hence the reason I say this in my journal and not to them :)

Sadly, I'm far from sure they'd believe the studies anyway - in fairness, we're the kind of class that's pretty sceptical about studies in general. Though it does seem logical that gay people have fewer partners - there's fewer of us, for one thing!

[kontiki.livejournal.com]

...this in neither excusing nor defending their short sighted position, however, I have noticed an interesting correlation over the years...

In order to be eligible to hold a seat in United States House of Congress, you must be at least 25 years of age, to hold a seat in the US Senate you must be at least 30 years old and to be eligible for the Presidency, you must be at least 35 years old.

The idea being that these positions need a certain amount of perspective and maturity.

...and it seems to me that it does take the average person until they are about 25 years old to *get* that they are not really the center of the universe and their "universal" beliefs aren't shared by everybody.

...and it also seems to me that it takes the average person until they are around 35 to *get* how complex honoring everyone's rights can be, and that what seems "right and natural" to them, may not work for others.

...not to mention acquiring some empathy and compassion for others...

None of which makes it one whit less frustrating or acceptable.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

That sounds very sensible, though I'd never really thought about it like that. In general, my friends are a mature bunch, so I suppose that's why I find other people my age to be more disappointing.