bluflamingo | Sexuality and... well, sexuality, I guess

Entry tags:

poll,
writing

Sexuality and... well, sexuality, I guess

So, something you see a lot of in fic: Character J thinks Character R must be straight because of < insert reason here > (his tendency to go off and date women, I guess). Or Character D and Character C get together, but one of them was previously straight. Or had fooled around with same-sex relationships as a kid, but not since.

(And sometimes they're bi, but dated women exclusively for < insert reason here > but that's a whole different debate that isn't this one).

Why am I pointing this out? Because it's interesting to me, because I've never written any of those things. I've never even thought about it. I don't think I've ever really written a character having much angst over their sexuality (the consequences of it, yes, like Lorne in Less Like Freedom, but not much over actually being gay/bi). The closest I've ever come to the stuff above is Katie Brown in Red Wine and Hope, whom Laura implies is a straight woman who sometimes messes around with other women (bicurious, I guess).

I barely ever even bother to specify how the character thinks of their sexuality: John's referred to himself a bi a couple of times, in his head, though I see him skewing pretty far towards the male end of the spectrum. Regardless, I like the explanation that he genuinely does fall for some women better than any of the other explanations for his relationship with Nancy (well, except for the one I had before it became clear she'd remarried, in which they were close, gay friends during college, who loved each other but not really sexually and ended up getting married for some reason I've never come up with, till they got divorced for whatever reason. Clearly, that doesn't work with canon). Other than that, Lorne refers to Colby as bi but skewing heavily towards men in Redefinition, and I think to himself as gay in Less Like Freedom, though I could be wrong.

And that's it. Everyone else, assume their sexuality as you see fit: gay, bi, in-love-with-x-regardless-of-gender... It's almost never specified.

Still wondering when I'm going to get to the point (or indeed if I even have one)? Here's the point: I'm wondering if the amount of attention we pay to a character's sexuality, including people turning gay upon meeting a certain person (they almost never turn bi, which would make far more sense in most cases), and including whether we even specify, is a function of our own sexuality.

I'm openly gay pretty much everywhere, and while there was a fair bit of related angst when I was coming out, that was five years ago and I'm done with angst about my sexuality (though the effects of it frequently cause me angst, see, any previous rant about my current boss). Most of the time, I don't think about it, and that's reflected when I write about characters in same sex relationships. I don't feel the burning need to define their sexuality that a lot of people seem to - if they're in a same sex relationship, assume a level of non-straightness and lets move on.

So, before I ramble about it more and start to get inadvertently offensive (because I suspect I would, however much I tried not to), a poll:
[Poll #1317587]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Most of the time, it's not a plot or character point, so I don't define it. Occasionally, when I am writing a first time story, I will mention what the character identifies as, if it shows some growth or change from where they were at in canon or the beginning of the story. Stories that I haven't written but am utterly fascinated by are ones where a guy self-defines as straight, but he's fine with other guys sucking him off. Since I love psychological character studies, I keep thinking I'd love to have a go at that, but it is so alien to me that I can never get in the mindset. It's just too much work.

Stories that I haven't written but am utterly fascinated by are ones where a guy self-defines as straight, but he's fine with other guys sucking him off. Since I love psychological character studies, I keep thinking I'd love to have a go at that, but it is so alien to me that I can never get in the mindset. It's just too much work.

I used to be involved with a sort of female equivalent of that - sex was fine but no kissing because she defined as straight, and I could never wrap my head round her either. It'd be interesting to read though.

I define for purposes of characterization and otherwise don't bother if it doesn't serve that.

It all depends on the character and the canon. Sometimes I define a character's sexuality to offer a reasonable explanation of how he or she goes from canon A to the story's B. I might define John Sheppard as gay if I was writing him as a very closeted individual who married in order to please his family or conform to the Air Force's expectations of its up and coming officers - because that would be saying something about his character. I might define him as bi if I was writing him as in a comfortable and non-angsty relationship with another guy, because ignoring the canon marriage seems dishonest. Probably the only time I'd bother to define a character as exclusively heterosexual would be if they were confronted with refusing a non-het relationship. With an original character I wouldb't bother defining as gay, but just illustrate it, unless again the definition served to say something about their personality.

I hope that makes sense. I hadn't really thought it all out before.

Probably the only time I'd bother to define a character as exclusively heterosexual would be if they were confronted with refusing a non-het relationship.

Hmm, see now I'm wondering if maybe that's the division instead - whether people consider that they're writing a gay/bi version of the character, so everything they write is mildly au, or whether they consider that the actual character could be gay/bi as he/she is, so they're writing something as canon as a gen mission story, or something about a canon relationship. And if it's the latter, no need to define it, in the same way that no-one usually bothers to define characters in opposite-sex relationship unless, as you say, it comes up.

It would be very nice if that were so, but I do think most people are - unconsciously - writing slash as an AU on some level. The default assumption unless otherwise explicitly stated remains heterosexual. But maybe we're progressing. We do stop and think about the assumption now.

Maybe we've stumbled on a new definition of gen: stories in which the sexuality of characters are not explicitly stated or illustrated because it isn't germaine to the plot - and therefore may not be assumed to be any default.

I think I'm going to read gen with this new filter from now on.

It would be very nice if that were so, but I do think most people are - unconsciously - writing slash as an AU on some level.

See, I'm genuinely not. And I realize this probably makes me sound a little crazy, and I understand that this isn't what the people making the show intend for me to see, but I really do see some of the characters as gay or bi as they are on screen. Not all of them (for me, Rodney in a same-sex relationship is slightly au, for example, while John or Lorne definitely isn't), but some of them.

Maybe we've stumbled on a new definition of gen: stories in which the sexuality of characters are not explicitly stated or illustrated because it isn't germaine to the plot - and therefore may not be assumed to be any default.

That'd be nice, instead of gen meaning 'assume straight'. My biggest problem with Less Like Freedom, which is about Lorne being gay, but is not a pairing story at all, was whether it could be labelled gen without seeming misleading (well, my biggest problem after the five false starts!). Because most people expect gen to be something that could happen in the show, more or less, and Lorne being gay doesn't fall under that, despite there being absolutely nothing to say one way or the other about his sexuality.

But that's a whole different rant that you don't want to hear :)

I actually enjoy a good rant (why I like McKay, after all). Especially if I agree with it. :)

I actually enjoy a good rant

Me too, but I go back to my parents for Christmas in three days, so I need to get out of a ranty place, or it'll end up in another screamin argument between me and my father, my sister and my grandmother, followed by none of them speaking to me for three days.

Which would probably be a bad thing :)

Um, I really thought I talked more about the character's sexuality, until I saw your question, and had to come up with examples. I've never really written a coming out story, though some of my older pieces, or fics with teenagers, have some discussion of it. Generally, though, my characters aren't particularly confused. There's some angst about being non-straight and in politics/entertainment/military, but in general, I assume bisexuality and move on. This is perhaps because, though it took me a while to get there, I'm pretty comfortable with calling myself bi now. And tend to take offence when it's implied that bisexual means confused/halfway-out-of-the-closet.

I guess some of my fics have some dicussion of gender/sexuality roles, and how the characters perceive themselves. But not many where they put themselves in the right box /is-a-bi-stereotype ;)

There's some angst about being non-straight and in politics/entertainment/military, but in general, I assume bisexuality and move on.

That's what I always find so weird about stories where characters are angsting over their pre-existing sexuality (some agnsy is probably to be expected if they're suddenly attracted to a gender they weren't while in their late thirties, say) - they seem like they're old enough to have dealt with it already, if they've been gay/bi for a while, and figured out a solution.

And tend to take offence when it's implied that bisexual means confused/halfway-out-of-the-closet.

Ugh, I hate that idea. I was emailing with someone the other week, about a presentation, in which she wanted to say that bisexual people are 'straight some of the time'. It's a good thing it was over email, or there would have been physical violence, I fear. Just - how can people be (a) so misguided and (b) so unaware of how offensive that kind of thing is? And she's on the committee of the lgb forum!

I sometimes define sexuality, generally when I'm writing about characters who have demonstrated an interest in the opposite sex in canon (e.g., Sheppard and Mitchell). For characters like Lorne or Zelenka, who are never given canon love interests, I probably wouldn't bother.

I think there are two reasons for this. First, I often feel the need to acknowledge their canon relationships by describing them as bi, especially in first time stories. (I don't feel the same need in established relationship stories, oddly enough. Perhaps because in first time stories, they're making an active decision to become involved in an opposite-sex relationship and I feel the need to justify that in order for it to be believable. But that isn't universally true--it depends on the story.)

The second reason is that in some cases, relationship history can reveal important things about a character, and if I'm discussing that, then definitions of sexuality are going to come into play. If I define them as gay, then there was a different kind of sacrifice involved in joining the military, and a very different (and much more stressful) dating life than if they're bi.

Perhaps because in first time stories, they're making an active decision to become involved in an opposite-sex relationship and I feel the need to justify that in order for it to be believable. But that isn't universally true--it depends on the story.

Interesting. I never really thought about that distinction between first time and established relationship, actually, but it does make sense. Weirdly, the only times I've defined it have been in established relationships. Strange.

I only tend to define sexuality when it is something that would come up from whatever point of view I'm writing from and it would be important for plot or characterization. I might mention bisexuality in passing if a character has canon relationships with the opposite sex, but even then it's not something I tend to dwell on in most cases. Point of view is important here, too, especially when I'm writing in close third person. Sheppard, for example, isn't going to think of even his own sexuality, let alone someone else's, unless forced to do so by circumstances, while Mitchell or Lorne might be more apt to think of being bi or gay as part of who they are.

I do find it cropping up a fair bit, but that's as much an artifact of writing mostly for Stargate and especially about Sheppard and Mitchell, where the choice to join the military is directly affected by their sexuality. It also comes up when it affects relationships. In a fic I'm writing right now, I've got Sheppard, Mitchell, and Lorne having a long-standing friendship that started specifically because the three of them aren't straight and Sheppard took it upon himself to look out for Lorne when they were younger. It only came up, though, because it was from Mitchell's point of view. By the time of the story, Sheppard has almost certainly forgotten that was ever that important and only thinks of Lorne's sexuality when he needs to get Lorne's botanical boyfriend to find him some good wine for his ~~date~~ friendly evening with Mitchell.

Sheppard, for example, isn't going to think of even his own sexuality, let alone someone else's, unless forced to do so by circumstances, while Mitchell or Lorne might be more apt to think of being bi or gay as part of who they are.

So very true! I guess I read a lot of stories where Sheppard is kind of forced to think about it, by virtue of being interested in McKay, who's very very straight in canon.

In a fic I'm writing right now, I've got Sheppard, Mitchell, and Lorne having a long-standing friendship that started specifically because the three of them aren't straight and Sheppard took it upon himself to look out for Lorne when they were younger.

Okay, I'll just be over getting giddy with anticipation - that sounds great :)

I suppose it does come up a lot in those types of stories, although even then I'm pretty sure he's going to avoid thinking about it. Sometimes I find that those stories spend a bit too much time on John worrying about it when he would be more likely to be thinking, "repress, repress, repress," while trying to figure out whether Rodney or whoever might be interested in him despite evidence to the contrary. One thing is for sure - the word 'sexuality' is never going to pass through his thoughts. The closest he might come is looking up sociology research on the subject for the sole purpose of annoying Rodney with soft science.

Whether their friendship is great depends very much on who you ask, and when. Right now Lorne would die for John; Lorne of fifteen years ago would be more likely to strangle him because of the Road Trip From Hell.

Whether their friendship is great depends very much on who you ask, and when.

I rather meant that the story sounds great, in an I-can't-wait-to-read-it kind of way, but the best frindships are ones that change, so that wanting to kill each other this year doesn't mean you wouldn't do anything for them again next year (or indeed while wanting to kill them).

QIA?

Questioning... Intersexed? Something? I never seem to get the memos when these things get changed....

Thanks.

It's been a long time since I've written (the last thing I have is Shep/Lorne blow job on the Dadelaus scribbled in the margins of my nursing school notes) but I just tend to avoid the subject altogether. If I write, I write one-shots with established relationships that don't bother to address the character's sexuality--I like to play in universes where it doesn't matter or it just doesn't come up. Love is Love, sometimes it's just physical sex between two people and other times it's Twu Luv. Most the characters I like to write are secure in who they are and don't feel the need to or can't scream from the rooftops that they are gay/straight/bi. I see Shepard as leaning mostly toward menfolk, but liking to get play with womenfolk as well and Lorne almost exclusively into men. There was this one time...but he was drunk and he's pretty sure her boyfriend was involved as well...:p

I think a lot of why I avoid it in fiction is because I avoid it in real life - I don't like to think about my own sexual orientation....oddly enough, I've been dwelling on it the last week or so though. I have a very hard time accepting that there is a part of me that is attracted to other females. (I live in South Texas in a very catholic/baptist area, and even though I've long given up religion, I still see where it's influenced my thinking.)

I don't think I've forgiven/accepted myself for being me yet, and the characters I play with don't seem to have that issue.

Most the characters I like to write are secure in who they are and don't feel the need to or can't scream from the rooftops that they are gay/straight/bi.

Yeah, exactly. They're at the point where they don't really think about their sexuality any more (which is something that really annoys me about people's ideas of gay people, that our sexuality has to be a massive issue that's always on our minds, but I'll spare you that rant!)

I don't think I've forgiven/accepted myself for being me yet, and the characters I play with don't seem to have that issue.

That sounds really tough, I'm so sorry you're having a bad time with it. I imaagine it'd be pretty hard to write about characters going through the same thing - very exposing, in a way.

Questioning/Queer, Intersex, Asexual. Should have had U for undecided as well. I'm on the management committee of the local LGB forum, we spend a lot of time thinking about these things :)

I'll define the character's sexuality if I feel like the story calls for it, but sometimes I just feel like “[sexuality], it's okay not to explore it.” I have a threesome piece which is heavy on the exploring-sexuality, but oftentimes I don't bother. I find it's often not needed.

I find it's often not needed.

Thank you! It's depressing how many people don't think that way :)

I have a threesome piece which is heavy on the exploring-sexuality

That sounds interesting - would you link me to it please?

I said I don't usually define the character's sexuality, but since you brought it up I mentally paged through the fic I've written...

I can think of a couple stories where Mac thinks that he hasn't done this [gay sex] in a long time, but those are all set in season one where I assume that he hasn't had sex with anyone since Claire died and that he didn't screw around while married to Claire. So there's no window for him to have slept with a guy by any definition of recently, and it's as much about Mac acting as a sexual being again as it is a gesture toward some kind of queer sexuality.

The only other time I think I've brought it up was in a couple Danny/Flack pieces that I wrote almost a year ago where Danny's implicitly traded handjobs but thinks that "doesn't count" as gay, but then Flack keeps... enticing him into what is undeniably sex. But that scenario was mostly because I wanted some new way to write them.

But no, in fic I always default to some level of queerness in a character. I don't particularly think about it, and I honestly don't think the characters I've written would bother to think about it most of the time, either. It's not worth thinking about in those terms.

So there's no window for him to have slept with a guy by any definition of recently, and it's as much about Mac acting as a sexual being again as it is a gesture toward some kind of queer sexuality.

I think I'm the same - it only gets defined if it's important to the story, or at least it has so far, because the few times I have, it's been in stories that are tightly focused on the effects of the relationship being a queer one, in some way.

The only other time I think I've brought it up was in a couple Danny/Flack pieces that I wrote almost a year ago where Danny's implicitly traded handjobs but thinks that "doesn't count" as gay, but then Flack keeps... enticing him into what is undeniably sex.

Link, please?!?!

I don't define it for both the reason you stated (they're obviously non-straight, let's move along). In a first time story (which I love) I simply throw in a reference or a line to let the reader know that character A's feelings for character B aren't new. The reader can decide if that means character A's always lusted after men, or just always after character B.

And I must admit, as a straight woman, I don't feel I have the background to do justice to any kind of storyline dealing with sexuality. I wouldn't want to mess up such a deeply personal and sensitive issue.

Although, if asked I would probably admit to at least thinking of them as bi simply because canon almost always shoves a women at the guys in my fandoms.

And I must admit, as a straight woman, I don't feel I have the background to do justice to any kind of storyline dealing with sexuality. I wouldn't want to mess up such a deeply personal and sensitive issue.

I think it's a lot harder to mess it up than most people think, just because there's so many ways in which people think about sexuality. On the other hand, maybe I just think that because I'm already gay and feel reasonably confident in my ablity to talk about sexuality in fic (though, interestingly, the one story I wrote that focused on the character being gay went through 5 false starts, as averse to the usual maybe one).

Although, if asked I would probably admit to at least thinking of them as bi simply because canon almost always shoves a women at the guys in my fandoms.

Yeah. I actually think of Sheppard as gay, but I write him as bi because he had a wife, and it just makes more sense (and makes him out to be less of a bastard than a lot of the alternatives).

I usually have an idea in my head of what the character's sexuality is but I try to bring that out through their actions and feelings, if it's relevant, rather than having them state it.

Character D and Character C get together, but one of them was previously straight. I actively try to avoid writing this because it's too close to some of my own experiences (I've dated three virgins) and the relationship headaches it potentially brings up can be painful. I don't want to put the characters through it. I try to avoid reading it, too, because it's usually too happy-go-lucky for my liking.

I have used sexuality as a plot-point before (although it was more a case of "Freak out about something obvious to avoid thinking about something else painful"), but mostly I think the pairings make it clear enough. I agree with

lilyleia78 - as a straight woman, I'd have difficulty doing justice to sexuality-focused stories, so I tend to explore other issues I'm more familiar with.

I don't want to put the characters through it. I try to avoid reading it, too, because it's usually too happy-go-lucky for my liking.

I'd love to read a story that dealt with the issues around realizing they're not straigh, rather than having them just fall into bed together with a little more than a shrug. I'm not saying I want every story to have pages and pages of angst, but a little acknowledgement that it's not quite the same as just finding a new partner would be nice.

I have used sexuality as a plot-point before (although it was more a case of "Freak out about something obvious to avoid thinking about something else painful"),

Link, please? :)

It's here. Fair warning: it's a post-Sunday story.

Does it make me a terrible person to admit that post-Sunday stories don't bother me cos I just wasn't that bothered about Carson?

I really enjoyed your story - I know you said it was a WIP, but I really hope you decide to write more of it.

I was never all that attached to Carson either. That said, I found Sunday really sad because while the writers were trying to show how many friends Carson had the way they all reacted to him asking them to go fishing made it look like the opposite.

Thank you! It's been on my mind lately because I've been re-watching The Lost Tribe. If I get time over Christmas I'll work on posting some of the Daniel/Rodney prequel bit.

Oh, and it's not the coming-to-terms part that gets to me. I *love* reading that. It's the fact that I have yet to see a fic where someone confronts the fact that, 'Hey, if I'm interested in guys now it kind of sucks that I don't get to sleep with any other guys because I'm in a relationship with my first.' I've had that conversation, and luckily it worked out, but it's a minefield of hurt.

Hmm, interesting question. Most of the people I write for have canon opposite sex love interests, but I either say explicitly that both characters are bi or I just don't bring it up. Like you, I had very little angst about my own sexuality and coming out was ridiculously easy, so that could explain why I'm not particularly interested in it.

As some of the others said, it's at least partially a storytelling economy issue: sexuality/self-identity has not been central to the stories I've written, so I don't address it. I can imagine writing a self-identity angst story, but it hasn't happened yet.

On the other hand, I have written stories where the POV character is trying to figure out if the OTHER one is gay. So maybe my personal experience informs the conflicts I come up with more than I think. :)

On the other hand, I have written stories where the POV character is trying to figure out if the OTHER one is gay. So maybe my personal experience informs the conflicts I come up with more than I think. :)

Yeah. I think I'm the opposite - I spend too much time trying to figure out if people I like are gay or bi, so I write wish-fulfilment fic in which they don't have to go through the worrying :) And also in which the other person is gay and interested, since that never happens to me.

I think this is a really interesting thing to bring up and the results of the poll are quite varied. ...I really did have more to say, but my lack pf brainpower (am so TIRED) isn't helping, but just pretend it was relevant and if I remember later I will come back!

I think this is a really interesting thing to bring up and the results of the poll are quite varied.

Yeah, it'd definitely not very clear cut, though there's a pretty small sample. Damn, I knew I should have picked a different disertation topic (though I wouldn't have wanted to explain it to my supervisor, I don't think!)

ROFL! I would have liked to be a fly on the wall as you explained that one! ;p

I don't really define it unless it's a coming out moment type story... or they're just like... 'Wow, this is... I'm Gay/Lesbian'. Because, while I am a lesbian (I'm still in the midst of coming out), I personally believe that you fall in love with people and it doesn't matter what gender they are. I just so happen to prefer women.

I don't really define it unless it's a coming out moment type story

I think that makes a lot of sense, but so many stories do have the character thinking about whoever they like and thinking about their sexuality, or discussing it with the other person when they get together. I have to say, I've never been involved with anyone where we ended up discussing our sexuality, because it was assumed that since we were together, we must be some kind of not-straight. And the character mostly have ten years on me, so I kind of think they're at that point as well; they might discuss the effects (you do realize we can't tell anyone, or whatever) but not the fact of it.

I clicked "I'm straight and I sometimes define the character's sexuality, for reasons that I'll tell you about in the comments" but that's kind of misleading since thus far I *haven't* defined (within the text of a fic) a character's sexuality. It's less about whether they're straight or bi or gay because I assume if they're ready to get into a same-sex relationship then they're either bi or gay (usually bi).

But the John/Cam fic I'm working on will deal with John facing up to a lifetime of hiding his sexuality (he's bi, but as you say, skews toward liking men) and Cam falling in love with a man after a lifetime of liking women. Not sure if I can do it justice yet, but the goal is to make the guys figure out their issues.

But the John/Cam fic I'm working on will deal with John facing up to a lifetime of hiding his sexuality (he's bi, but as you say, skews toward liking men) and Cam falling in love with a man after a lifetime of liking women.

That sounds really interesting - I'll keep an eye out for it!

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Sexuality and... well, sexuality, I guess

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject