(no subject)

[bluflamingo]

This should be a ranty post, really, but I'm too tired to even rant. Give me a few days and I'll be back to my normal ranty self, but right now, I'm so fed up with this, I haven't the energy.

The thing is, in the last couple of weeks, I've

- been wolf-whistled in the street
- been told that this is really a compliment and I should be flattered
- been told that if I wear a slightly low-cut top, I have to expect that men will not only look at the tiny bit of my cleavage they can see, but also not be able to take their eyes off it
- had a twenty minute conversation with a guy I work with, all of which was conducted to my breasts
- had a guy I've never spoken to in my life come and put his hand against mine, then move after me to do it again when I moved away
- found out that I'm about to be working with someone who thinks 'is your wife hot?' is an okay question to ask his brand new supervisor, and also feels that it's okay to announce, in front of said supervisor after he's explained that actually his wife is not his wife but his husband, that 'I don't like gay people, I don't like what they get up to and I think it's wrong, but it's fine unless they try to come on to me'.

And the thing is, none of this is even really new. Most of it happens every year. It's just - is it so hard to understand that I dress in these clothes, in the same way I dress in everything I wear, because I like how I look, not because I want people to ogle me? Do men really have so little self-control that they become utterly transfixed by the slightest hint of cleavage, and are incapable of looking at my face while I talk to them?

My friend said, about the new guy at work, that at least I can educate him, and my first thought was, yeah, but I don't want to have to. He's 32, he should know better by now, and I'm not a walking education in how to treat women and gay people, or what's appropriate to say in the work place. If I wanted to do that, I'd get a job as a diversity and equality trainer. I just want to be able to go about my day and not have to put up with all this, and right now I think, it must be so nice to be a man, because whatever else you have to put up with, you don't have to put up with this.

Also, if one more man listens to me explain my thesis into perceptions of female date rape victims and tells me that this is a problem for male victims as well, or that not all men who are accused are guilty (which, btw, has absolutely nothing to do with my research), I swear I'm not going to be responsible for what I do or say. I don't need this pointing out to me - I'm not living in a bubble, I get it. Men get raped as well. But that's not what I'm researching, and the way they come out with that right after makes me think they just don't get where I'm coming from at all, and that they can't think about anything except in terms of how it affects them as men.

Comments

[ionaonie.livejournal.com]

Do men really have so little self-control that they become utterly transfixed by the slightest hint of cleavage, and are incapable of looking at my face while I talk to them?
Yes.

I just think, I dunno. It's almost as if, if there are breasts there (on show or not) most men can't not look at them. It doesn't make it right and I wish it wasn't so, but it does seem to be.

Being wolf-whistled in the street - so not a compliment. Just...never.

And yeah, a man of 32 should, by that age, know the way to be polite and looking at someone's breasts really isn't that polite. Is that really so hard to understand?

*hugs* Hope the stupid people go away soon.

[skieswideopen]

Sorry you're having such a rough week.

I've had that conversation about wolf whistling/cat calling; a male friend of mine claims that these actions really are intended as compliments and the (poor, poor) men just don't know any better way to compliment or interact with women. It's very frustrating. (I'm still trying to get across to him the idea that many women, most of the time, do you not want to receive comments on their appearance of any sort from men they don't know, and sometimes from men they do. There seems to be an underlying assumption that women are supposed to be happy to get any sort of positive attention from any man.)

[havocthecat]

“At least you can educate someone” is a bullshit line meant to make you feel bad that you didn't turn getting harassed or hearing some soet of prejudiced comment into a constructive learning experience for the person who's being prejudiced or harassing. Which, by the way, is bullshit, because you're under no obligation to expand anyone's life or learning experiences, because you have a right to be pissed.

Why do men always want to point out their half of the species can be raped too? Is it to make it all about them, or are they just, I don't know, trying to steal some of what makes being a woman more unique without giving up any of their privilege? Or… Oh, God, why am I bothering to try to analyze this?

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

It's almost as if, if there are breasts there (on show or not) most men can't not look at them.

See, I kind of get the reasoning behind the urge to look - it's like when someone has a slogan on their shirt, you have to read it. It's just - why do they have to *keep* looking when we're talking???

Hope the stupid people go away soon.

:( Me too

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

There seems to be an underlying assumption that women are supposed to be happy to get any sort of positive attention from any man

I think that's it exactly - I'm going to borrow this phrase next time it comes up, because I always struggle to put into words exactly why it isn't a compliment. It's one thing to be chatting to someone you don't know and have them compliment you (I do it a lot while I'm working near a patient, saying I like their shirt or their headscarf or whatever, but in a conversation) but whistling at someone - I'm sorry, but there are very few people with enough confidence to do that and simultaneously no knowledge of how better to interact with a woman.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

“At least you can educate someone” is a bullshit line

Yeah. I mean, she's right in a sense, in that I do take a lot of opportunities to explain to people why they're being idiots, but it's not exactly a consolation to know I'm probably going to have to. And I sort of feel like - what right does he have to benefit from getting it explained to him nicely why what he's saying could be seen as offensive, when he probably doesn't even care what I have to say anyway? I'm not a teacher, it's not my job to educate everyone and...I dunno, some days I just want people to not be idiots so I don't have to.

Why do men always want to point out their half of the species can be raped too?

God, I wish I knew. It's like they just can't fathom there being an issue that isn't all about them. Or maybe it's a way of avoiding the implication that they personally could be accused/guilty of rape, even though that's not what I'm implying. Like a way of getting around the idea that by being male they fall into this category of people who commit rape... I don't know, I don't think I'm explaining that well. I just end up giving up on the conversation, because I have to keep saying, yes, but that's not what my research is on, that's not what I'm concerned about in this, or getting into a discussion of male rape, which, if we're trying to avoid the idea of men as rapists, is pointless, because most male rape victims are also raped by men.

Ugh, some days, I just want to lock myself in the house and not deal with any real people at all.

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

I came here from your excellent story at lgbtfest, but I have to chime in with a great big WORD to everything you've said here. So many people think it has to be all about what men feel, including the issue of rape, and women just have to make allowances for men... but no. There's no excuse for harassment, and anyone who drags out the old "men can't help it" canard is not only enabling harassment, but revealing deep-seated misandry, of all things—their opinion of men is so low, they think men can't function in a civil society well enough to interact with other people as people rather than pieces of meat. You're under no obligation to make allowances, or turn it into a "learning experience" for bigots, or to put up with groping and harassment, or to tolerate homophobic comments. Ugh. The whole harassment = flattery fallacy reminds me of an article (http://thehathorlegacy.com/feminism/why-if-you-think-harassment-is-flattering-you-are-stupid/) over at the Hathor Legacy about harassment (comments are insightful, too):

Strange men do not hoot at, yell at, or leer at you because they think you’re hot. They do those things because they think you’re vulnerable and needy. If you think they want you sexually, you need some serious education on power psychology. They want to feel like they’re on top of you, but not in the way you imagine.

When you see someone attractive, it’s natural to look. But not to stare - there are rules against staring throughout the animal kingdom. And you don’t talk unless the person you’re looking at says something to you first, because when you get caught looking, it would be aggressive to follow that up with verbalization. This is something your cat understands, for pete’s sake. ... Discreet looks are flattering because they reflect only a natural aesthetic reaction. Leering - staring overtly at someone who’s watching you stare - signals aggression. Uninvited verbalizations are also aggressive - that’s why when the salesman at the kiosk leaps out to ask you if you ever get split ends, you feel pressured and cornered (until you realize you’re entitled to tell them to back off and leave you alone because they started the hostility and you’re only responding in kind)...

Ask yourself: why do men typically leer and catcall in packs? Rarely will one man by himself with no buddies around look you over and say something about your appearance. Because they know deep down it’s aggressive, not merely appreciative. Ask yourself: why do they continue to yell daily at women who’ve told them clearly to back off? Because they’re so concerned she understand how sexy they find her? Or is it maybe a little more likely they like pissing her off because it’s a power struggle, not a sex game.

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

Though I really don't think a woman has to be needy in order for some guy or guys to harass her. It's a power game originating in the harasser's head, after all. The article is a response to "Catcalling: creepy or a compliment?" at CNN, in which a woman argues that street harassment is actually flattering.

[scarletts-awry.livejournal.com]

Gah, yes. I have nothing coherent to add, but yes, I feel your rage and join my own to it. Yesterday afternoon a parking lot attendant looked me up and down and called me "sunshine." Fucking made my skin crawl. Because, of course, when I got dressed it wasn't because I wanted to feel good and look nice and work appropriate for the work event I had to go to, it was because I wanted to brighten your fucking day.

Sadly, there are moments when I'm glad my boobs are much too small for me to achieve cleavage.

Not that this observation does you much good, but according to all the training I just had to go through when I was hired by Kaplan, new guy at work's behavior already qualifies as textbook sexual harrassment.

I think that men's knee-jerk reaction that they can get raped too... I think on a subconscious level that's because we live in a stupid binary society and they're thinking there are only two categories--victim and rapist--and they don't want to get lumped into the rapist category for being men. Even though in piping up "men get raped too" they're actually exercising a small amount of the same priviledge that makes it so much more damn common that women are the ones raped by men.

Ah well, that's my dimestore psychology. (um, you probably don't need it if this is in your profession.) Actually, do you mind if I ask what your job is / if you're working on a degree since your researching date rape? I mean, I'm just curious, and if you've talked about it much, I'm sorry I've missed it.

All in all, though, I have wondered many times this week how people can be so poorly socialized. And, like you said, it shouldn't be our job to educate or socialize them.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to the article, and the comment. The whole thing about aggression is it exactly - I refuse to believe there are any men out there who think that whistling at a girl is going to get her to fall for them; it's so true that we don't realise we're entitled to tell people to back off either. I mean, I have a whole set of things I do to people try to get me to donate money to charities in the street, but not once do I just tell them to leave me alone, because it seems rude. Even though not taking the hint that I'd like them to is just as rude. Sigh.

[bluflamingo.livejournal.com]

Ugh, the parking attendant sounds *creepy*. If you must comment on how someone looks, what's wrong with a simple, hi, you look nice? Plenty of women I know do it all the time!

Even though in piping up "men get raped too" they're actually exercising a small amount of the same priviledge that makes it so much more damn common that women are the ones raped by men.

Yeah. I've got to the point where I want to give a disclaimer before I start talking, about how I do understand that men can be raped but this is why I'm focusing on women and... It's like men who start telling you all about your own subject or area of expertise, like they have to prove they know more or something.

Actually, do you mind if I ask what your job is / if you're working on a degree since your researching date rape? I mean, I'm just curious, and if you've talked about it much, I'm sorry I've missed it.

Not at all - I don't think I've ever actually said. I'm a masters student in sociology at the moment, doing my dissertation on peer perceptions of date rape victims. And kind of wishing I'd picked a topic I felt less strongly about, because just doing the background reading is making me sad and angry, and I suspect running the focus groups on it will be worse.