bluflamingo | (no subject)

Oh God, are we doing 'women writing m/m slash are just fetishizing gay male relationships' again already? Really?

Okay, I've missed most of the debate because I don't want to read it, so I can't exactly claim to be knowledgeably commenting about what people are saying, beyond the bits other people are quoting when they link, but can I just say for the record:

Not all of us write m/m, or f/f fic because we think it's hot. Some of us write it because in our world, people are gay, and since we're not going to see gay space explorers or gay marines or gay FBI agents on our tv screens any time soon, we have to write it ourselves, so we do.

Because in my world, Lorne's gay and John's bi, and so's Cadman, and probably Cam. And Colby. I'm not pretending they are because I think they're pretty together, and I know I'm not supposed to read them that way, but authorial intent actually doesn't matter, and I do think they are. And if they are, and it's a relationship story, since they're grown adults, they sometimes have sex, and if I'm bothering to write it, yes, I try to make it sexy, because it should be, as a general thing, like horror should be scary (which is why I don't write it).

I'm not totally sure what my point is, other than 'if I see one more thing about how all slash fic is by straight women either getting off on two men in bed together, or just trying to be edgy,' I shall scream.

Also: gay and bi women do exist, and we do write slash fic, male and female, and it wouldn't kill all the gay men who seem to be complaining about slash fic to remember that once in a while, because the more they don't, the more I'm disinclined to bother to listen to what they have to say, since I don't like being invisible, and I don't like being told off by someone who doesn't seem like they've got all the facts before they started.

Also: fucking talk to me when you're ready to talk about people fetishizing gay women in their fic, if you're talking about it for gay men. Personally, I say, if you want to write any kind of fic, knock yourself out (just don't make me read the het, I get bored), but, seriously, either it's fine to write f/f *and* m/m or it's not fine to write either. And if your argument is basically 'it's derogatory to a marginalised group,' yes, you need to be talking about people writing about gay women in there somewhere as well, no matter how much less prevalent it is. Otherwise, you're not fighting discrimination, you're just complaining (like me, but then I'm not claiming that I'm fighting discrimination, I'm just pointing out what's pissed me off today).

Also: actually, I don't care what you think about me and people like me and what we do for fun. We're not hurting you (which, yes, I do feel I can say, since I'm a gay woman and people write f/f fic) so just leave us alone to get on with it in peace, please.

And no, if you were wondering, I'm not having a great week, and my patience is severely limited.

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'well, actually, I really don't think the gay male experience on those things is that different from the gay female experience

you think the physical fear is the *exact* same? that's a big statement, idk if I can agree with that.

You're probably over this conversation by now, I'm so behind on my commenting. But. Generally what I say to rants like this, is that if someone is upset about something, they're upset about something. And if what's upsetting them doesn't apply to *you*, then it doesn't apply to you. So don't worry about it.

A discussion about gay and bi women in slash fandom would be nice, but this wasn't that. (It didn't even start out being about fandom at all.)

you think the physical fear is the *exact* same? that's a big statement, idk if I can agree with that.

I didn't say it's exactly the same, which it obviously isn't - for one thing, no one person's fear is the same as any one other person's fear. But yes, I do think that the physical fear is pretty similar. I'd be interested to know why you disagree, and I don't mean that in a snarky way, in case it sounds that way.

A discussion about gay and bi women in slash fandom would be nice, but this wasn't that.

Yes it would be nice, and I'm not surprised that this wasn't that, since it never is. But regardless, it's quite possible to have a discussion about one part of something while also acknowledging that you're not in fact talking about everyone when you talk about that one group. My problem isn't that the conversation is about straight women writing slash, my problem is that the conversation speaks as though they're the *only* people writing slash, which makes the rest of us invisible. Again.

And if what's upsetting them doesn't apply to *you*, then it doesn't apply to you. So don't worry about it.

The thing is, although they're not talking about me specifically, which is part of my problem with it, they are talking about a space I belong in, and they're talking about it as if I and all the queer women and men who also belong there don't exist. And that does apply to me, and it does bother me, so. Which is also why I'm ranting about it here, not in their journals - I'm sure they're having a perfectly legitimate conversation which I don't want to derail by pointing out what they're not talking about, but that doesn't stop me getting annoyed and upset that once again we're being told what to do by people who don't acknowledge that I actually exist.

Here from a link on Metafandom.

I don't think it's that surprising that a gay man would think that his experience of homophobia is different, even if the way it was expressed does strike me as unfortunately accusatory.

I think the way that homophobia is expressed towards gay men is far different than towards lesbians. I would say with some confidence that a gay man is more worried about a physical, violent response than a gay woman is. The emotions behind it are the same, but the physical response is different, and draws out a different sort of fear.

I would say with some confidence that a gay man is more worried about a physical, violent response than a gay woman is.

Tell that to all of the lesbians who've been raped to "prove that they need a man."

I should have clarified; I think that a gay man is more likely to be beaten, while a lesbian is more likely to be raped. Both are violent, one is more sexual than the other.

That isn't my main point, however, I am not trying to downplay violence against either. You take two individuals of the same gender and orientation, even, and one will have a different experience than the other, different fears. I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women. It's possible to acknowledge differences in experience without downplaying one or the other.

I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women.

Agreed, but I don't think that particular poster was doing that, because in some places, he didn't qualify "gay" with male; it was just "women don't understand the gay experience". And maybe if I haven't seen that assumption so often, that gay = men and that lesbians don't exist, I'd be less annoyed.

I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women. It's possible to acknowledge differences in experience without downplaying one or the other.

Yes, it is possible to acknowledge difference without downplaying one or the other, though in this case, he wasn't actually doing that (and I know that's possibly a spurious claim to make since I can't find the post I'm talking about and link to it, so you have to go on what I'm saying). He was saying, as darkrose says, that women can't understand the gay experience, period. So firstly, he's basically saying that gay equals male, when actually I and plenty of my gay female friends use gay to describe ourselves. Secondly, he's implying, by not specifiying straight, that all women are straight. Thirdly, it's a big leap from 'my experience is different from yours' to 'you can't understand it. Ever.' Obviously, one person can never have a perfect understanding of what another person feels, but, regardless of the fact that physical violence is likely to be expressed differently towards gay men and gay women, a lot of the underlying stuff is pretty similar - certainly similar enough for one person to make a reasonable extrapolation of what the other is feeling.

Obviously, he and you would disagree with me on that.

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