(no subject)

[bluflamingo]

Oh God, are we doing 'women writing m/m slash are just fetishizing gay male relationships' again already? Really?

Okay, I've missed most of the debate because I don't want to read it, so I can't exactly claim to be knowledgeably commenting about what people are saying, beyond the bits other people are quoting when they link, but can I just say for the record:

Not all of us write m/m, or f/f fic because we think it's hot. Some of us write it because in our world, people are gay, and since we're not going to see gay space explorers or gay marines or gay FBI agents on our tv screens any time soon, we have to write it ourselves, so we do.

Because in my world, Lorne's gay and John's bi, and so's Cadman, and probably Cam. And Colby. I'm not pretending they are because I think they're pretty together, and I know I'm not supposed to read them that way, but authorial intent actually doesn't matter, and I do think they are. And if they are, and it's a relationship story, since they're grown adults, they sometimes have sex, and if I'm bothering to write it, yes, I try to make it sexy, because it should be, as a general thing, like horror should be scary (which is why I don't write it).

I'm not totally sure what my point is, other than 'if I see one more thing about how all slash fic is by straight women either getting off on two men in bed together, or just trying to be edgy,' I shall scream.

Also: gay and bi women do exist, and we do write slash fic, male and female, and it wouldn't kill all the gay men who seem to be complaining about slash fic to remember that once in a while, because the more they don't, the more I'm disinclined to bother to listen to what they have to say, since I don't like being invisible, and I don't like being told off by someone who doesn't seem like they've got all the facts before they started.

Also: fucking talk to me when you're ready to talk about people fetishizing gay women in their fic, if you're talking about it for gay men. Personally, I say, if you want to write any kind of fic, knock yourself out (just don't make me read the het, I get bored), but, seriously, either it's fine to write f/f *and* m/m or it's not fine to write either. And if your argument is basically 'it's derogatory to a marginalised group,' yes, you need to be talking about people writing about gay women in there somewhere as well, no matter how much less prevalent it is. Otherwise, you're not fighting discrimination, you're just complaining (like me, but then I'm not claiming that I'm fighting discrimination, I'm just pointing out what's pissed me off today).

Also: actually, I don't care what you think about me and people like me and what we do for fun. We're not hurting you (which, yes, I do feel I can say, since I'm a gay woman and people write f/f fic) so just leave us alone to get on with it in peace, please.

And no, if you were wondering, I'm not having a great week, and my patience is severely limited.

Comments

[spillingvelvet]

And just when you thought it couldn't get any more annoying, Viggo Mortensen spit water at you.

Shocking.

[I dun really have anything constructive to say except, "Ayep." So. Ayep.]

[bluflamingo]

Well, as long as he's not doing it in person, I can cope :o)

[slybrarian]

Yes, yes, double yes to everything you said. I hate it when this discussion crops up, because so many people get unfairly lumped together and accused of things that are frankly absurd. Yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who do write slash just because it's hot. There's plenty of people who don't, though, and I'm not entirely willing to accept that it's a bad thing anyways.

[bluflamingo]

Yes, I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who do write slash just because it's hot. There's plenty of people who don't, though, and I'm not entirely willing to accept that it's a bad thing anyways.

Hear hear! I mean, yes, writing slash fic and then going off and saying you don't support gay marriage and think all gay people should be drowned at birth is pretty exploitative and creepy, but most people don't do that (or at least, not in my corner of fandom). So what if people are writing it because they think it's hot? Everyone's writing for some reason, and there are much worse ones (like 'I want everyone to see that gay sex is icky and wrong and also makes you a child molester.' Frankly, I'd rather people thought it was hot).

o.O

[ninja007]

o.O

I have no idea where they has come from. I completely agree with you, but I feel like I'm out of the loop.

What I do know, is that an author I know was recently attacked (I don't know the how's, but it was enough that she has completely withdrawn from any fandoms) for writing slash. She was a wonderful author, brilliant even.

On top of this, some group is currently attacking Dreamwidth as well.

What the hell have I missed? I watch the news channels... When did any of our countries turn into a tyranny?

Re: o.O

[bluflamingo]

Stay out of the loop would be my recommendation. I just followed a link from someone to an entry about 'how to get writing gay men right,' written by a gay man, and he started off with 'of course you can't understand the gay male experience, the homophobia, the fear,' and that was as far as I got because I thought 'well, actually, I really don't think the gay male experience on those things is that different from the gay female experience, so you'll excuse me while I back button away from yet another person who hasn't noticed I exist. While I'm standing right next to him.'

I'd actually calmed down about it before then!

What I do know, is that an author I know was recently attacked (I don't know the how's, but it was enough that she has completely withdrawn from any fandoms) for writing slash. She was a wonderful author, brilliant even.

That's awful! What's wrong with people that they have to go around attacking others who aren't even doing anything wrong? Seriously, what happened to minding your own business?

Re: o.O

[ninja007]

I'm not sure, but if this is the same victim, it's getting really alarming.

Another person on one of my flist, she was attacked on a personally level. This person called her employer, she worked in a school system, and told them she was passing on child pornography.

This is the same accusation that this group who is currently terrorizing Dreamwidth is making. It's absolutely false, but the damage has been done.

The poor author deleted her own fics from existence! Completely withdrawing from any fandoms and almost from the internet...

All I can say is....

WHAT THE HELL???

As for some people, even though you have to walk a similar path, they will never accept you have had the same problems in life as they have had. These are the same people who think it's only hetero women writing slash (two of my fav slash writers are gay men!). I think these are the same guys who call women who like to hang around gay men "Fag Hags".

Double standard.

Sad.

Re: o.O

[bluflamingo]

As for some people, even though you have to walk a similar path, they will never accept you have had the same problems in life as they have had

Individually, they've got a point there - my personal experience is probably not a lot like a specific other person's personal experience. But yeah, as a group, it's like you say, really not that different, and a lot of the same problems.

Re: o.O

[dirty_diana]

'well, actually, I really don't think the gay male experience on those things is that different from the gay female experience

you think the physical fear is the *exact* same? that's a big statement, idk if I can agree with that.

You're probably over this conversation by now, I'm so behind on my commenting. But. Generally what I say to rants like this, is that if someone is upset about something, they're upset about something. And if what's upsetting them doesn't apply to *you*, then it doesn't apply to you. So don't worry about it.

A discussion about gay and bi women in slash fandom would be nice, but this wasn't that. (It didn't even start out being about fandom at all.)

Re: o.O

[bluflamingo]

you think the physical fear is the *exact* same? that's a big statement, idk if I can agree with that.

I didn't say it's exactly the same, which it obviously isn't - for one thing, no one person's fear is the same as any one other person's fear. But yes, I do think that the physical fear is pretty similar. I'd be interested to know why you disagree, and I don't mean that in a snarky way, in case it sounds that way.

A discussion about gay and bi women in slash fandom would be nice, but this wasn't that.

Yes it would be nice, and I'm not surprised that this wasn't that, since it never is. But regardless, it's quite possible to have a discussion about one part of something while also acknowledging that you're not in fact talking about everyone when you talk about that one group. My problem isn't that the conversation is about straight women writing slash, my problem is that the conversation speaks as though they're the *only* people writing slash, which makes the rest of us invisible. Again.

And if what's upsetting them doesn't apply to *you*, then it doesn't apply to you. So don't worry about it.

The thing is, although they're not talking about me specifically, which is part of my problem with it, they are talking about a space I belong in, and they're talking about it as if I and all the queer women and men who also belong there don't exist. And that does apply to me, and it does bother me, so. Which is also why I'm ranting about it here, not in their journals - I'm sure they're having a perfectly legitimate conversation which I don't want to derail by pointing out what they're not talking about, but that doesn't stop me getting annoyed and upset that once again we're being told what to do by people who don't acknowledge that I actually exist.

Re: o.O

[kerri]

Here from a link on Metafandom.

I don't think it's that surprising that a gay man would think that his experience of homophobia is different, even if the way it was expressed does strike me as unfortunately accusatory.

I think the way that homophobia is expressed towards gay men is far different than towards lesbians. I would say with some confidence that a gay man is more worried about a physical, violent response than a gay woman is. The emotions behind it are the same, but the physical response is different, and draws out a different sort of fear.

Re: o.O

[darkrose]

I would say with some confidence that a gay man is more worried about a physical, violent response than a gay woman is.

Tell that to all of the lesbians who've been raped to "prove that they need a man."

Re: o.O

[kerri]

I should have clarified; I think that a gay man is more likely to be beaten, while a lesbian is more likely to be raped. Both are violent, one is more sexual than the other.

That isn't my main point, however, I am not trying to downplay violence against either. You take two individuals of the same gender and orientation, even, and one will have a different experience than the other, different fears. I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women. It's possible to acknowledge differences in experience without downplaying one or the other.

Re: o.O

[darkrose]

I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women.

Agreed, but I don't think that particular poster was doing that, because in some places, he didn't qualify "gay" with male; it was just "women don't understand the gay experience". And maybe if I haven't seen that assumption so often, that gay = men and that lesbians don't exist, I'd be less annoyed.

Re: o.O

[bluflamingo]

I just think that it's within that person's rights to say that they feel that their experience is different than that of gay women. It's possible to acknowledge differences in experience without downplaying one or the other.

Yes, it is possible to acknowledge difference without downplaying one or the other, though in this case, he wasn't actually doing that (and I know that's possibly a spurious claim to make since I can't find the post I'm talking about and link to it, so you have to go on what I'm saying). He was saying, as darkrose says, that women can't understand the gay experience, period. So firstly, he's basically saying that gay equals male, when actually I and plenty of my gay female friends use gay to describe ourselves. Secondly, he's implying, by not specifiying straight, that all women are straight. Thirdly, it's a big leap from 'my experience is different from yours' to 'you can't understand it. Ever.' Obviously, one person can never have a perfect understanding of what another person feels, but, regardless of the fact that physical violence is likely to be expressed differently towards gay men and gay women, a lot of the underlying stuff is pretty similar - certainly similar enough for one person to make a reasonable extrapolation of what the other is feeling.

Obviously, he and you would disagree with me on that.

[linkspam_mod]

Your post has been included in a post on Linkspam

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Via linkspam

[maryaminx.livejournal.com]

Because in my world, Lorne's gay and John's bi, and so's Cadman, and probably Cam. And Colby. I'm not pretending they are because I think they're pretty together, and I know I'm not supposed to read them that way, but authorial intent actually doesn't matter, and I do think they are. And if they are, and it's a relationship story, since they're grown adults, they sometimes have sex, and if I'm bothering to write it, yes, I try to make it sexy, because it should be, as a general thing, like horror should be scary (which is why I don't write it).

I'd like to take this paragraph and paste it in every discussion about how slash takes straight characters and make them gay with the addendum: SO THERE.

(And maybe make sweet, sweet love to it, but that would be creepy.)

Re: Via linkspam

[bluflamingo]

I'd like to take this paragraph and paste it in every discussion about how slash takes straight characters and make them gay with the addendum: SO THERE.

God yes - I know the world likes to assume everyone's straight unless they come out, but actually, it doesn't work that way! And if we're talking air force and marines and FBI, it's hardly implausible that they'd choose not to announce their queer sexuality to the world.

[sqbr]

*agrees*

For the most part I think the "Is published m/m romance exploitative of gay men?" question is not something I should poke as a straight woman who doesn't read published m/m romance. But some of the assumptions made as the discussion has shifted into fanfic have bugged me.

I do not find m/m sex remotely sexy, but still have a few boyslashy stories knocking around in my head because they are interesting stories that happen to be about two men in a romantic relationship. I mean, I think if you write a lot of fiction with relationships in and none of them are m/m then you might want to think about why. (In my case I think it's mainly because I like female protagonists, but I still poke myself about my lack of gay male secondary characters)

People keep comparing it to "lesbian porn aimed at men" but I think it's important to remember there's actually a lot of generally respected f/f romance written by men: Strangers in Paradise, Revolutionary Girl Utena, bits of Buffy etc. There's male femslash writers too.

Which is not to say some slash isn't creepy with regards to gender/sexuality, but to frame the argument as "It's exploitative porn" vs "It's porn as legitimate female self expression" is to undersell the variety and depth of slash.

[bluflamingo]

Which is not to say some slash isn't creepy with regards to gender/sexuality

Definitely. But it seems like the argument took the creepy/exploitative stuff and then tried to argue that that's what it all is. Which is a bit like saying Harlequin romances are don't generally have well written female characters, so all romance fic is like that. All of it.

I mean, I think if you write a lot of fiction with relationships in and none of them are m/m then you might want to think about why. (In my case I think it's mainly because I like female protagonists, but I still poke myself about my lack of gay male secondary characters)

Yeah, in the same way that fandom occassionally starts in on 'why do you only write the white characters?' or 'why do you never write women?' Which is not to say there isn't a perfectly valid reason - like you preferring to have female protagonists - but a diverse secondary cast isn't exactly a bad thing.

[sqbr]

Which is a bit like saying Harlequin romances are don't generally have well written female characters, so all romance fic is like that. All of it.

Which people do!

I think it's never a bad idea to poke at one's writing decisions and patterns.

[jaaaarne]

actually, I don't care what you think about me and people like me and what we do for fun. We're not hurting you (which, yes, I do feel I can say, since I'm a gay woman and people write f/f fic) so just leave us alone to get on with it in peace, please.

My position exactly. I'm finally seeing at least some sensible posts on this topic, because I was starting to feel like a dirty pervert and aggressor with guys pointing their fingers accusingly and all.

[bluflamingo]

Yeah-I mean, yes, some of it is creepy and exploitative and I wish people wouldn't write it, but the answer isn't 'women should stop writing m/m' it's 'people should do a better job of researching and writing their chosen thing.'