(no subject)

[bluflamingo]

Oh God, are we doing 'women writing m/m slash are just fetishizing gay male relationships' again already? Really?

Okay, I've missed most of the debate because I don't want to read it, so I can't exactly claim to be knowledgeably commenting about what people are saying, beyond the bits other people are quoting when they link, but can I just say for the record:

Not all of us write m/m, or f/f fic because we think it's hot. Some of us write it because in our world, people are gay, and since we're not going to see gay space explorers or gay marines or gay FBI agents on our tv screens any time soon, we have to write it ourselves, so we do.

Because in my world, Lorne's gay and John's bi, and so's Cadman, and probably Cam. And Colby. I'm not pretending they are because I think they're pretty together, and I know I'm not supposed to read them that way, but authorial intent actually doesn't matter, and I do think they are. And if they are, and it's a relationship story, since they're grown adults, they sometimes have sex, and if I'm bothering to write it, yes, I try to make it sexy, because it should be, as a general thing, like horror should be scary (which is why I don't write it).

I'm not totally sure what my point is, other than 'if I see one more thing about how all slash fic is by straight women either getting off on two men in bed together, or just trying to be edgy,' I shall scream.

Also: gay and bi women do exist, and we do write slash fic, male and female, and it wouldn't kill all the gay men who seem to be complaining about slash fic to remember that once in a while, because the more they don't, the more I'm disinclined to bother to listen to what they have to say, since I don't like being invisible, and I don't like being told off by someone who doesn't seem like they've got all the facts before they started.

Also: fucking talk to me when you're ready to talk about people fetishizing gay women in their fic, if you're talking about it for gay men. Personally, I say, if you want to write any kind of fic, knock yourself out (just don't make me read the het, I get bored), but, seriously, either it's fine to write f/f *and* m/m or it's not fine to write either. And if your argument is basically 'it's derogatory to a marginalised group,' yes, you need to be talking about people writing about gay women in there somewhere as well, no matter how much less prevalent it is. Otherwise, you're not fighting discrimination, you're just complaining (like me, but then I'm not claiming that I'm fighting discrimination, I'm just pointing out what's pissed me off today).

Also: actually, I don't care what you think about me and people like me and what we do for fun. We're not hurting you (which, yes, I do feel I can say, since I'm a gay woman and people write f/f fic) so just leave us alone to get on with it in peace, please.

And no, if you were wondering, I'm not having a great week, and my patience is severely limited.

Comments

[sqbr]

*agrees*

For the most part I think the "Is published m/m romance exploitative of gay men?" question is not something I should poke as a straight woman who doesn't read published m/m romance. But some of the assumptions made as the discussion has shifted into fanfic have bugged me.

I do not find m/m sex remotely sexy, but still have a few boyslashy stories knocking around in my head because they are interesting stories that happen to be about two men in a romantic relationship. I mean, I think if you write a lot of fiction with relationships in and none of them are m/m then you might want to think about why. (In my case I think it's mainly because I like female protagonists, but I still poke myself about my lack of gay male secondary characters)

People keep comparing it to "lesbian porn aimed at men" but I think it's important to remember there's actually a lot of generally respected f/f romance written by men: Strangers in Paradise, Revolutionary Girl Utena, bits of Buffy etc. There's male femslash writers too.

Which is not to say some slash isn't creepy with regards to gender/sexuality, but to frame the argument as "It's exploitative porn" vs "It's porn as legitimate female self expression" is to undersell the variety and depth of slash.

[bluflamingo]

Which is not to say some slash isn't creepy with regards to gender/sexuality

Definitely. But it seems like the argument took the creepy/exploitative stuff and then tried to argue that that's what it all is. Which is a bit like saying Harlequin romances are don't generally have well written female characters, so all romance fic is like that. All of it.

I mean, I think if you write a lot of fiction with relationships in and none of them are m/m then you might want to think about why. (In my case I think it's mainly because I like female protagonists, but I still poke myself about my lack of gay male secondary characters)

Yeah, in the same way that fandom occassionally starts in on 'why do you only write the white characters?' or 'why do you never write women?' Which is not to say there isn't a perfectly valid reason - like you preferring to have female protagonists - but a diverse secondary cast isn't exactly a bad thing.

[sqbr]

Which is a bit like saying Harlequin romances are don't generally have well written female characters, so all romance fic is like that. All of it.

Which people do!

I think it's never a bad idea to poke at one's writing decisions and patterns.